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Another economics talk?

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Another economics talk?

Post by Khaddo on Fri May 25, 2012 2:06 am

Just wanted to see what everyone thinks of the new Emeralds that are being placed in the game for 1.3. and was featured on the most recent snapshot of minecraft.

For those that don't know anything about it, basically minecraft is adding a new ore block which you receive emeralds from. So far, it seems that the only use to these is trading with villagers, who will either give you emeralds in exchange for items, or vice versa.

Currency has been something that we all seem to have varying points on, but since this may end up being the currency of SSP, it may end up being a viable currency for our DOT server.

Questions? Thoughts? Theories? Emotions? Objections? Feelings?

EDIT: The 1.3 update is also making the stars different. I'd just like to say that my observatory is going to be well-timed, along with the general MC astronomy kick I have been having as of late.


Last edited by Khaddo on Fri May 25, 2012 2:33 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Addition)
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Re: Another economics talk?

Post by Faelar Laelither on Fri May 25, 2012 2:12 am

EMERALDS?!?!?!?

I HAVE TO COLLECT THEM, I HAVE TO COLLECT THEM ALL!
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Re: Another economics talk?

Post by Oddwarf on Fri May 25, 2012 2:18 am

Rupees?
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Re: Another economics talk?

Post by n008i3 on Fri May 25, 2012 4:52 am

Well, personally I think that we need to reestablish a general currency anyways. I have gotten many different conversion rated between shops and that seems as if it should be something standard through the server. I do not think that these emeralds will serve as a viable replacement for iron and gold however. They will probably be rare because their only use would be to trade them to villagers, and so there would not be enough of them to start or maintain a currency. Also, would they spawn into the map with the update? Or only in new chunks loaded after the update? because that could make them rarer...

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Re: Another economics talk?

Post by Wheeind on Fri May 25, 2012 5:14 am

I think our old iron, diamond and gold system was well balanced. I see no reason why emeralds couldn't be added into that somewhere depending on their rarity and usability but I think having currency that has practical use for a newer person collecting it is still our best option over a dedicated currency.

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Re: Another economics talk?

Post by Sealand on Fri May 25, 2012 5:22 am

They'll be pretty rare seeing as no one would be able to get them in already loaded chunks.

Maybe not though, I think you can get them off Villagers as well.

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Re: Another economics talk?

Post by BlazeZeroThree on Fri May 25, 2012 5:47 am

Wheeind wrote:I think our old iron, diamond and gold system was well balanced. I see no reason why emeralds couldn't be added into that somewhere depending on their rarity and usability but I think having currency that has practical use for a newer person collecting it is still our best option over a dedicated currency.

This, essentially. So long as the open market for currency and barter goes, we'll just continue to do our daily business as we see fit, and that includes the use of iron, diamonds, and gold. If it turns out people want emeralds, then it will be fit into our system of open currency, otherwise I guess they'll be treated as cute collector's items.

And I refuse to have a serverwide standard that instituted out of character. That just doesn't make sense for our server or for our gameplay. If you want to go on with the use of currency as a regulated issue, then you're probably going to want something that isn't inherently worth much, as something that people would want to get rid of rather quickly to trade into goods. But this is Minecraft, and since there is virtually no such thing as specialization, a foundation of modern currency and economics, it's very hard to pull off.

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Re: Another economics talk?

Post by chipset3363 on Fri May 25, 2012 11:29 am

This seems like a good idea to me, using somthing that we are being given and if we dont we will have 2 different currencys that will be a but of a bother to have to both use.
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Re: Another economics talk?

Post by Joccaren on Fri May 25, 2012 1:29 pm

Making Stars Different? CAN THEY BE TEXTURED IN NOW!?!?!? PLEASE SAY YES, I WANT AN EPIC PHOTOREALISTIC NIGHT SKY JEB, GIVE ME THE ABILITY TO GET ONE.

*Ahem*

Anyways, I have made my views on the issue of a standardised currency abundantly clear every other time it has been bought up, but I'll say it again:

It will not work.
In MC we are able to get pretty much everything if we work towards it. Most of what we need, however, is in the way of practical materials. You need iron and diamonds to make picks, gold to make powered rails.
What can we do with Emeralds? Gamble with NPC villagers, hoping we get a good item? Who in their right mind would want that over something you can use?
Ask yourself this. You just finished building a massive house, getting 2 double chests of materials for them, or doing some other work that cost you a lot of time and effort, and ran you out of iron. You are offered two things: 32 blocks of iron, or an equivalent price in Emeralds. Which would you take?
The obvious answer is Iron. With it, you can replenish your stock of tools and armour - which doing this work depleted you of. You gain an instantly useable resource that you can buy things with, make tools out of, protect yourself with and many other uses. If you didn't do this, you would have to make a stone pick and spend your time mining looking for iron to make better tools again.
If you pick Emeralds, you get an item with no use, that you have no guarantee of someone else wanting if you want to trade for something, that cannot make you tools, that cannot protect you, and that can only be used to trade with Testificates that haven't been killed by marauding players. Dependent on what the Testificates give you, and for what price, and how common it is to receive each item, this may have some payoff. It may also have no real payoff either.

Unless there was a 100% chance of getting an iron tool per emerald, and pay in Emeralds was equal to pay in iron, I wouldn't accept any trade that paid me Emeralds. How could I use them? I couldn't make tools with them. Odds are I'd get a lot of useless crap from Villagers, rather than stuff I actually needed, and I wouldn't make back the resource cost it cost me to do my job, and other players would likely feel the same way.


It basically comes down to someone offering you a useless item that does nothing, or something you can use to help you in almost any way. Someone IRL offers you 20 old, worn out shoes, or $100. Which are you going to take?


chipset3363 wrote:This seems like a good idea to me, using somthing that we are being given and if we dont we will have 2 different currencys that will be a but of a bother to have to both use.
You won't be given it. You'll have to travel to unexplored chunks and mine it, just like iron. The difference will be that it has no use except for trading with NPC villagers, which I don't think will end up being too practical, whilst iron you can use for almost anything.
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Re: Another economics talk?

Post by Oddwarf on Fri May 25, 2012 2:23 pm

I'll stick with gold for a while. I have a fever.
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Re: Another economics talk?

Post by HereticalPsycho on Fri May 25, 2012 5:39 pm

When push comes to shove i'd say iron is our main currency, i imagine that this is mainly because everyone has some and everyone needs it. This makes trading it for other things you need extremely practical. However people are still free to ask for payment for things in any way they please, for example Darkborne only trades in gold and how you can offer other items or blocks that people may need. If emeralds become useful in some way i imagine they will be used to trade as well, but I don't see why its important to have an "official" currency when a blend of them all is more efficient.
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Emeralds: Usless

Post by Skull Sphinx on Fri May 25, 2012 8:47 pm

Besides a novelty, Emeralds are completely useless according to Minecraft Wiki: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I think the reason Diamond, Gold, and Iron are a great currency is because they have use as materials for tools, armor, etc. CURRENTLY Emeralds have absolutely no use except to trade to villagers. Maybe if in a new update it does something, then maybe a currency item, but for now, lets leave it as a novelty, like to cocoa beans. :D
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Re: Another economics talk?

Post by TheFrazzledKid on Fri May 25, 2012 8:56 pm

Skull Sphinx wrote:Besides a novelty, Emeralds are completely useless according to Minecraft Wiki: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I think the reason Diamond, Gold, and Iron are a great currency is because they have use as materials for tools, armor, etc. CURRENTLY Emeralds have absolutely no use except to trade to villagers. Maybe if in a new update it does something, then maybe a currency item, but for now, lets leave it as a novelty, like to cocoa beans. :D

I think the exact opposite of this. >.>
In my world, currency is SUPPOSED to not have a use other than to buy things with.
I'd prefer to use Emerald then say, Iron, or at least incorporate Emerald it into the mixture.
If our currency was Emerald, you couldn't just go out and mine a lot of iron, and then hopefully trade that to some one.
It'd be more professional, in my view. You'd then have to craft that iron into something, sell it to a Villager (We could have a Villager NPC in a shop in each town), and then receive the money (Emeralds).
If we used Emeralds, you'd have to make a decision, is keeping the iron (Or whatever you might want to sell to a Villager) more important in case you need to quickly build something with it, or trade it for Emeralds?
Also then you could easily tell somehow how wealthy you are. Right now, you'd answer by trying to think of how much coal, iron, diamond, and rare items you have scattered across your chests.
Emeralds would keep things simple >.>

I do believe I'm ranting, but it's 2am, so leave me alone. >:(


Last edited by TheFrazzledKid on Fri May 25, 2012 9:01 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Another economics talk?

Post by BlazeZeroThree on Fri May 25, 2012 10:44 pm

@ Frazz: Specialization is a predicate of currency: the idea is that you can trade your goods for an intermediate medium (currency) to obtain something that you normally cannot obtain through your own willing labor, or cannot obtain easily through bartering (for instance, something can be worth a massive quantity of something you might not want a massive quantity of, or you'd need a massive quantity to obtain a particular wanted good). Minecraft has no such qualities except in a few areas like construction and redstone engineering, which don't happen on a scale large enough to justify a currency system. /economicsmajorlol

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Re: Another economics talk?

Post by Khaddo on Sat May 26, 2012 1:58 am

Now, I am really not the type to really honestly care about what we are using for currency (I am poor IRL and being poor in-game makes no difference to me), but I do have only one problem with the iron as currency.

Now, in one direction it makes sense. You work your butt off, someone pays you in iron. However, seeing as I use more iron that I could ever even try to keep as currency, buying ANYTHING for me is just a giant pain. Why waste the iron buying something when I could just use the iron and get it myself? And on a server like ours, I think that sort of thinking undermines shops a little already. I understand that emeralds are more difficult to obtain, but we DO have a village just outside of Horizon, which means in theory, given enough supplies, there would be plenty of emeralds.

However, I am not really trying to put my two cents in (even though I just did) as much as I am trying to raise awareness of emeralds and to get a healthy discussion about them. This way, we can already have discussed this topic by the time the update is finished.
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Re: Another economics talk?

Post by Joccaren on Sat May 26, 2012 4:12 am

TheFrazzledKid wrote:
I think the exact opposite of this. >.>
In my world, currency is SUPPOSED to not have a use other than to buy things with.
I'd prefer to use Emerald then say, Iron, or at least incorporate Emerald it into the mixture.
If our currency was Emerald, you couldn't just go out and mine a lot of iron, and then hopefully trade that to some one.
It'd be more professional, in my view. You'd then have to craft that iron into something, sell it to a Villager (We could have a Villager NPC in a shop in each town), and then receive the money (Emeralds).
If we used Emeralds, you'd have to make a decision, is keeping the iron (Or whatever you might want to sell to a Villager) more important in case you need to quickly build something with it, or trade it for Emeralds?
Also then you could easily tell somehow how wealthy you are. Right now, you'd answer by trying to think of how much coal, iron, diamond, and rare items you have scattered across your chests.
Emeralds would keep things simple >.>

I do believe I'm ranting, but it's 2am, so leave me alone. >:(

This has always been the counter argument: Why would I want to trade something useful?
Another question that needs to be asked is why would someone accept something useless?
You don't want to give away valuable materials, but I don't want to get something I probably can't even use.
Why should I need to go to the trouble of waiting for someone to be online so that I can trade my emeralds to them, that I obtained by selling services to someone else an hour ago, so that I can get some iron, so that I can make tools, so that I can continue my work.
That also brings up another problem: If you don't want to trade iron now, why would you trade it in the future?
With the current Iron currency, you trade iron because you have to to obtain some service. You want a lot of wood? Well I want a lot of iron, lets trade. You want a massive house built? I want Iron and Diamonds, lets trade.
With Emeralds, I am asking you to give up your resources for something useless. You don't need me to do anything for you, you probably don't need Emeralds, but I need Iron, and I have Emeralds. My options become cut down to mine, or hope someone is willing to sell their iron.

NPC villagers I'm leaving out of this ATM as I have a feeling trading with them will work similarly to enchanting - RNG based system where the odds are never in your favour, though we'll see.

The same "How wealthy you are" countup would still have to happen. Nobody in their right mind would have their entire stock of items converted into Emeralds for easy counting. You'd still have your coal lying around, your iron waiting to be crafted, your diamonds - ect. The difference is you'd exclude yourself from counting anything but Emeralds, which can be done now by excluding yourself from counting anything but Diamonds, Gold and Iron. Everything else you own, even your property, technically still counts towards your "Richness" [They're all assets], but you aren't counting them when someone asks how much money you have.

Khaddo wrote:
Now, in one direction it makes sense. You work your butt off, someone pays you in iron. However, seeing as I use more iron that I could ever even try to keep as currency, buying ANYTHING for me is just a giant pain. Why waste the iron buying something when I could just use the iron and get it myself? And on a server like ours, I think that sort of thinking undermines shops a little already.
As said above, that only becomes worse with Emeralds as the currency. Whilst you now have something that you'll want to trade, because its useless, will anyone want to accept it?
It would still be simpler to just make an iron tool and head out to mine/grow/cut down whatever you needed. I doubt I would be the only one that would rarely if ever trade for Emeralds as I'd never be using them. Ask yourself this honestly: If someone asked if they could buy half your iron stock for what is decided to be an equivalent price in Emeralds, would you accept?
You don't want to waste resources now, and people won't when Emeralds become currency either. All it does is give everyone someone to clog up their chests with whilst hoping someone will sell them the stuff they need and accept Emeralds. Now, certain rich people on the server may do that, but they're not online all the time, and having the entire server currency depend on a couple of people is a bit of a bad idea IMO.

I understand that emeralds are more difficult to obtain, but we DO have a village just outside of Horizon, which means in theory, given enough supplies, there would be plenty of emeralds.
If you're talking about the one behind Capsnip and My estate on the hill, its dead. I don't know who killed them all, but it was empty when we got there. There is one Testificate still there, and he is a monk sitting on one block just inside a Ravine, staring down into it, and that's where he's staying [Because he's so epic there].
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Re: Another economics talk?

Post by HereticalPsycho on Sat May 26, 2012 7:29 am

I believe that Jocc presented that argument brilliantly, however i'm unsure of whether he thinks they should be left out as currency entirely or only added to the currency along side iron and gold instead of replacing them. Personally i think they should be added alongside iron gold and diamonds.

Replacing them would mean we would have to go through ridiculous lengths to obtain currency. Having to turn my iron into items so i can sell them for emeralds does not seem like a more efficient way then just paying in iron. I dont belive it should become our main currency, but i dont believe it should be exluded entirely either. If you like the idea of paying in emerlads, your welcome to run a shop that only deals in emeralds. same as dark only deals in gold and most places deal in iron, it should just be another way you can do business.
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Re: Another economics talk?

Post by Joccaren on Sat May 26, 2012 9:12 am

HereticalPsycho wrote:I believe that Jocc presented that argument brilliantly, however i'm unsure of whether he thinks they should be left out as currency entirely or only added to the currency along side iron and gold instead of replacing them. Personally i think they should be added alongside iron gold and diamonds.

Replacing them would mean we would have to go through ridiculous lengths to obtain currency. Having to turn my iron into items so i can sell them for emeralds does not seem like a more efficient way then just paying in iron. I dont belive it should become our main currency, but i dont believe it should be exluded entirely either. If you like the idea of paying in emerlads, your welcome to run a shop that only deals in emeralds. same as dark only deals in gold and most places deal in iron, it should just be another way you can do business.
I pretty much agree with you, and natural process. If someone wants Emeralds, they are more than welcome to ask for them as payment - same way you can ask for iron, gold, diamonds, lapis, wood, stone, coal, food or anything else presently.
I am against the idea of it being expected for people to trade in emeralds, or have it as a formal currency. We have no formal currency ATM, instead running on a barter system [With Iron, Gold and Diamonds being an informal currency because of their usefulness - there is a reason most transactions are done with them, and its not because someone said they should be], and that works well for us. Emeralds are another item that can be bartered for, however I wouldn't recommend only paying in Emeralds unless you only accept Emeralds as payment and are 100% willing to trade your iron, gold and diamonds, or other items, in return for Emeralds - essentially turning emeralds into an unnecessary middle man. It will cut you out of business with the probably many people who don't want Emeralds if that is all you are willing to pay.
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Re: Another economics talk?

Post by TheFrazzledKid on Sat May 26, 2012 9:36 am

Something I was meant to bring up a long, long time ago;
There should be an Economy thread somewhere, that presents each unit (Iron, Gold, Diamond), and how much each is worth in comparison with other items.

Adjudicating each a number (Like, Iron is 20, Gold 30, Diamond 60) would be efficient.
If Sticks were worth 4, then an diamond sword would be worth 124, and could be sold for, say, 6 iron bars and a stick (Which seems not worth it, as I just suggested random worth numbers) to make a profit.
Or something.

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Re: Another economics talk?

Post by Warrikon on Sat May 26, 2012 11:36 am

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yeh im kinda bored. also, this whole arguement has already been done... you guys are just extending it further than it needs to be >_<
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Re: Another economics talk?

Post by Khaddo on Sun May 27, 2012 2:13 am

I like that idea a lot, Frazz. If there was some sort of accepted standard of worth, that might make some people's lives easier.

Interesting points on all fronts, I would say. Y'all are fun to debate and discuss with, that's for sure.
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Re: Another economics talk?

Post by HereticalPsycho on Sun May 27, 2012 4:06 am

very interesting idea Frazz, would this value system then become the norm for prices on the server?
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Re: Another economics talk?

Post by Joccaren on Sun May 27, 2012 5:35 am

HereticalPsycho wrote:very interesting idea Frazz, would this value system then become the norm for prices on the server?
Probably, though I'd still bet that people will charge higher or lower than those prices dependent on how much the items are worth to them.
It would make it easier to decide a fair pay for things when neither side really values what they are trading much though.
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Re: Another economics talk?

Post by HereticalPsycho on Sun May 27, 2012 5:41 am

yeah definately a good idea for guidlines i would not recommend enforcing it or anything though since how much you have dictates value of things as well meaning that the values will never be spot on. However using for estimates and such and setting up a base value would be a nice asset
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Re: Another economics talk?

Post by BlazeZeroThree on Sun May 27, 2012 10:37 am

There's no way a standardized list would work without hourly daily updates, at least for the rapid hyperinflation of iron that's going on right now. People should be sorting these things out according to what they personally perceive as the value, as opposed to a single post telling people the non-equilibrium values of items and such.

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